No evidence against Mchunu, says Mogotsi

The “whole country” thinks police minister Senzo Mchunu is “corrupt [and] aligned to the drug cartels”, North West businessman Brown Mogotsi told the Madlanga commission on Wednesday — but there is no evidence “that links minister Mchunu to those things”.

Mogotsi’s statement echoed one made by Mchunu on November 7. Mchunu said he “noted” the details emerging from witnesses before the commission. “To date, no evidence has been produced to validate” the claims against him, he said.

Mogotsi was the first witness to appear in “phase 2” at the commission, where those implicated in the claims of collusion between law enforcement and a criminal cartel get to have their say and are cross-examined. In these claims Mogotsi is alleged to be the link between Mchunu and cartel leader Vusimusi “Cat” Matlala.

On Tuesday Mogotsi gave a different version: he was an undercover crime intelligence “contact agent”. He was investigating Matlala and, in so doing, had to “convince Matlala that I am close to Mchunu”. This was why he sent Matlala screenshots of chats between himself and Mchunu.

But on Thursday evidence leader Matthew Chaskalson SC took Mogotsi — in painstaking detail — through the Signal screenshots. He suggested — to vigorous denials — that it was “absolutely clear” Mchunu and Mogotsi were discussing the possible arrest by the Independent Police Investigative Directorate (Ipid) of members of the political killings task team after a search and seizure operation at Matlala’s house on December 6 last year.

The commission previously heard that Matlala had claimed Mchunu advised him to lay a “false” charge after the December 6 operation to frustrate the investigation against him.

Chaskalson began with a screenshot of a message from Mogotsi to Mchunu sent on Monday, December 23 2024 at 10.34: “We got a breakthrough.” Mogotsi said he could not remember what the “breakthrough” was.

Chaskalson said at “exactly the same time”, Mogotsi was on the phone with Matlala. “You, in fact, called Cat Matlala. You called him at 10:34:40, but the call may not have gone through because at 10:34:59 Cat Matlala called you back. And then at 10:35, you texted him: ‘Ipid guy name’.”

“Does that help you remember what the breakthrough was?”

“No,” said Mogotsi. “This situation, it happens to everyone: when you are chatting with someone and then you receive another call, when you answer that call, the particular person will start chatting to you.”

Mr Mogotsi, I have to put it to you that your answer is false. But let’s go through the texts. Let’s go to what happens later

—  Evidence leader Matthew Chaskalson SC

“Mr Mogotsi, I have to put it to you that your answer is false. But let’s go through the texts, let’s go to what happens later,” said Chaskalson.

On the same day, Mchunu called Mogotsi at 11.23. “He really seemed to want to get hold of you, because he called you twice. He called you again at 14.49,” said Chaskalson. Seven minutes later, Mogotsi sent a text to Matlala: “My brother, any news from Ipid?”

There was no answer from Matlala, and Mogotsi called again twice that day. A day later, Mchunu sent a message to Mogotsi: “Was the arrest effected?”

Mogotsi remembered what this message was about. It was in relation to the arrest of a zama-zama kingpin after a community meeting in Stilfontein that Mchunu attended. “I called him and told him there was no arrest,” he said.

But his Stilfontein explanation only led to more questions. Mogotsi had continued to ask Matlala about the “Ipid guy” and on December 27 he sent Matlala the screenshot of his exchange with Mchunu (about the “breakthrough” and whether the arrest was effected). Four minutes later, he sent him a message saying “Ipid”. If the arrest was about Stilfontein, why was he immediately following up about Ipid?

Mogotsi said the chats were separate. He sent Matlala the screenshot because he and Matlala had been talking about Stilfontein, and Matlala had told him that one of the police officers arrested over the escape of the zama-zama kingpin “could help us”. This was an “odd” explanation, said Chaskalson. There was no mention of Stilfonetein in any of their WhatsApps. They did not only WhatsApp, they also talked, said Mogotsi.

Then Chaskalson asked if the zama-zama kingpin he was referring to was “Tiger” Tshoaeli. He said an alleged kingpin of the zama-zamas called Tiger Tshoaeli “was arrested and did escape — but that escape only took place in the second week of January 2025. So it could not be what you were talking to the minister about on the 24th of December 2024.”

Mogotsi couldn’t remember. “I will have to find out. I must check the right name.” He said it may have been a different person, because the community meeting was definitely in December. He would check with his contact person in the community. He would not name this contact person as it would put his life in danger with the zama-zamas.

Chaskalson suggested Mogotsi’s explanation was “false, and you know it is false”.

“It is not false, it is true,” said Mogotsi.

The commission will continue on Tuesday.