Suspended police minister Senzo Mchunu has complained about the conduct of the evidence leader of the parliamentary ad hoc committee probing allegations of abuse of power and corruption in the criminal justice system, accusing advocate Norman Arendse of being hostile towards him.
On Friday, after his second day of giving evidence into the allegations by KwaZulu-Natal police commissioner Lt-Gen Nhlanhla Mkhwanazi, Mchunu told the Sunday Times he felt that Arendse, by constantly interjecting during his responses, was not giving him enough time to answer questions.
He said he had brought this to the attention of committee chair Soviet Lekganyane, who promised to look into the matter.
Mchunu is due to face tough interrogation by MPs this week over his allegedly unlawful decision to disband the political killings task team (PKTT), which was apparently not sanctioned by either President Cyril Ramaphosa or the interministerial committee (IMC) established to oversee the matter.
There are allegations that his decision to dissolve the PKTT was influenced by a need to protect criminal syndicates.
Mchunu clashed with Arendse on several occasions while being questioned about his decision to disband the PKTT.
Now your assistant keeps on engaging you when I speak; when you speak, she doesn’t engage you. I don’t engage with anyone. The impression I’m getting is that my response is not important, but what you say to me is important, and I have a problem with that
— Suspended police minister Senzo Mchunu to advocate Norman Arendse
On one occasion, Mchunu complained to Arendse that he took exception to Arendse’s assistant talking to him while he was responding to his questions.
“Now your assistant keeps on engaging you when I speak; when you speak, she doesn’t engage you. I don’t engage with anyone,” Mchunu said.
“The impression I’m getting is that my response is not important, but what you say to me is important, and I have a problem with that.” To which Arendse apologised.
Mchunu later accused Arendse of trying to make it seem he had done something illegal by not briefing national commissioner Gen Fannie Masemola, Mkhwanazi and suspended crime intelligence head Lt-Gen Dumisani Khumalo before issuing a directive that the PKTT should be disbanded.
This came after Arendse pressed Mchunu on whether, because of the trio’s intricate involvement in the running of the PKTT, he ought to have informed them in advance.
Mchunu said: “I have indicated that I didn’t breach any law. I want us to have an agreement or a consensus that I didn’t convene a meeting with Gen Masemola, [Lt-]Gen Mkhwanazi and [Lt-]Gen Khumalo [and that] doesn’t constitute an offence in the department or anywhere or in the state. It doesn’t. That’s why I talk about ... don’t impose a feeling of guilt just because I didn’t have a meeting with them. It doesn’t work like that.”
Mchunu and Arendse also locked horns on whether or not Ramaphosa agreed with his decision to disband the PKTT.
Arendse was adamant that because of the nature of the short brief that Mchunu gave to Ramaphosa — which was after he had already disbanded the PKTT — there was no room for the president to agree or disagree with the disbandment.
“It was a short briefing with the president. It was a briefing, it wasn’t a discussion, to say I at some point took this decision last year December. All I remember is that I did say there are matters that I have developed a very serious concern about, and I said to him these matters, among others, have led me to disband the PKTT, and that possibly at some point, if I didn’t do this, there may have been a call for a commission on those matters,” Mchunu said.
It sounds to me that you conveyed what you did to the president. The president heard what you had to say, and basically noted it. An agreement means two or more people discuss something, they put whatever is on the table that requires an agreement, they engage, and they say, ‘OK, fine.’
— Advocate Norman Arendse, evidence leader to Senzo Mchunu
“So I decided that I would pre-empt any need for such a call at some point, and I did this, and that was one of the things I mentioned during the short briefing.”
Arendse then questioned why, if the briefing was so short, Mchunu said Ramaphosa agreed with him.
“What should I say?” asked an agitated Mchunu.
“It sounds to me that you conveyed what you did to the president. The president heard what you had to say, and basically noted it,” said Arendse. “An agreement means two or more people discuss something, they put whatever is on the table that requires an agreement, they engage, and they say, ‘OK, fine.’
“Here it sounds like there was no agreement; you informed him of your decision.”
ANC MP Xola Nqola interjected to say to Mchunu that it was important to establish whether the president agreed or not, and that this was the reason why Arendse had been stuck on this point.
EFF leader Julius Malema added that it would become critical later on to establish whether Ramaphosa agreed or not.
Mchunu said: “The answer in the affidavit is that I briefed the president; he agreed with the briefing I gave him.”
In explaining why he had unilaterally taken the decision to disband the PKTT, Mchunu told the committee that the IMC on political killings had ceased to exist at the end of the sixth administration, and therefore he could not have a discussion with them.
However, senior government officials have maintained that this was not true as many IMCs from the sixth administration were reconstituted in the seventh administration.
One official said that as chair of the IMC on political killings, it was Mchunu who was meant to make sure that the IMC was reconstituted.
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