Your department has known about this stuff for more than 10 years, hasn't it?
Yes. We now have a controller and deputy controller on site.
So the prison's under administration?
It's been under temporary management since 2022. Those things that are mentioned in the report are things that happened before we took over temporary management.
Are they still happening?
No, they're not happening. Those that were involved in illegal activities there have been disciplined, most have left G4S.
Didn't G4S report that between 2017 and 2023 there were at least 5,000 “security incidents” at Mangaung?
That's why we have launched a campaign to clean the prison.
Has G4S left?
No, G4S is still at the institution. We're in court with them over our temporary management and our termination of their contract. We gave them notice and they took us to court. I made it clear when I was appointed acting commissioner in 2021 that I was going to advise that their contract not be extended.
Will you appoint another private security company or run the prison yourself now?
Our plans are already afoot. I have teams I put together on all the areas of managing a facility. Finance, health-care services, psychological ... If we were to take over Mangaung today our teams would roll in there and do it.
Do you have the capacity to run a prison efficiently?
We have, and we are demonstrating that.
What about the horror stories?
What is reported in the media used to happen in the past. We had the Thabo Bester incident, we took over management and the weaknesses in the system that we identified have been corrected.
The weaknesses that were already identified 10 years before the Bester incident?
Things that offenders indicated to us after the Bester incident. We put together a team to investigate that.
Is this the report that has now been leaked?
That's the one, but it's just a threat and risk assessment report.
When was it done?
In December.
Doesn't that suggest this stuff was still going on well into 2023? Female guards moonlighting as sex workers, prison officials colluding with drug syndicates, et cetera?
We cannot say that conclusively.
Can you say conclusively it's no longer happening?
What I am saying is that we are investigating these things and will release a full report.
Why didn't correctional services stop these things when they were identified in 2013?
We had a contract with G4S, so that was the contractors, not government. That's why we are moving towards terminating that contract.
Wasn't the contract suspended for 10 months after the weaknesses were identified, and then reinstated?
That is what happened. But it was because of the type of contract the department entered into. It was not strong enough to protect the interests of government, to give the department the space to come in. Even now with temporary management we are still being taken to court when it is very clear the contractors are failing.
Meantime you're acting against the perpetrators?
Those that are involved in illegal activities are going to be shown the door, and we are reporting them to the police.
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