At home in foreign affairs

“I never in my 30 years of being in parliament imagined the ANC would be in a unity [government] with the DA, so I’m still getting used to it. I’m on a brief, a watching brief.” This was the parting shot from former minister of international relations and co-operation Naledi Pandor, revealing an apprehension that many of her colleagues have expressed regarding the government of national unity (GNU).

Pandor is arguably one of the most prolific ANC ministers to have served in President Cyril Ramaphosa’s sixth administration. A doctor of education, the former minister ran her last mile in Ramaphosa’s cabinet having cemented her name in the history books as a leader who demonstrated grit, gumption and determination in the midst of South Africa’s most testing time in geopolitics.

Dressed in her brown statement suit, Pandor arrives just two minutes late for our interview. She takes this as a blight on her character, apologising profusely. She is quick to state that she respects people’s time and sees promptness as a sign of respect. This is uncommon for ANC leaders, who are notorious for arriving late for media interviews.

Pandor has been credited for having stood up to the Western superpowers in 2023 at the height of tensions between the West and its enemies in Russia. Despite finding herself suspended between the US and Russia, Pandor — to the surprise of many — emerged the consummate diplomat, gaining the respect of South Africa’s powerful allies.

This was made clear in the conversations she had with the foreign ministers of both Russia and the US when she left office. In her last interaction with US secretary of state Antony Blinken, she said they agreed to keep in contact as colleagues, having learnt much from each other.

“I think I learned from how he manages the global stage and he learned from my cheekiness. And he said so. I’m stubborn, and some of the views I hold, he found them educative. There was cooling. I don’t want to lie, but I think South Africa and the US will remain good friends. And I asked minister [Ronald] Lamola that as part of his agenda a visit to the US would be important.”

This cooling in relations between Washington and Pretoria was a result of different stances regarding Russia's war on Ukraine. The relationship was further strained by South Africa’s decision to take up the Palestinian cause following the October 7 attack on Israel by Hamas.

Pandor falls short of saying that her relationship with Blinken was on the brink of collapse. One comment she found offensive was when the US secretary of state “called [and] said he’s Jewish on this matter”. “I found that very surprising for a political leader of global stature.” She said Blinken was disappointed with how Pretoria remained non-aligned in the Russian war. “So that did lead ... to disquiet. And then, of course, we had total opposites on the question of Palestine,” she said.

When it comes to her counterpart from Russia, Sergei Lavrov, Pandor speaks with fondness. “Lavrov is scary, but he’s a teddy bear,” she said with a giggle. “He’s the longest- serving foreign minister, him and Wang Yi of China, but Sergei has got this voice, and he’s cheeky, but he can be an absolute teddy bear. He sends me these beautiful scarves, and every birthday he sends some flowers or something. But they love South Africa.

“They [Russia] wish to work with South Africa and, at times, they don’t understand why, in their view, we are hesitant because we have to be attentive to European and American sanctions on our country. And so we’re not as all-in as we may be, and I think they find that a bit troubling from time to time, but nonetheless we maintain very good relations. And Lavrov wrote me a lovely letter when I left office.”

Pandor’s collegial relationship with Lavrov was evident during the foreign ministers’ meeting in Cape Town in the lead-up to the Brics summit in 2023. It showed in the way Pandor took on international journalists who dared to question South Africa’s relationship with the Kremlin, which came under heavy scrutiny as she and Ramaphosa faced pressure locally and internationally to declare that Pretoria would arrest Russian President Vladimir Putin should he attend the Brics conference.

The International Criminal Court (ICC) had issued an arrest warrant against Putin for detaining Ukrainian children. As a signatory of the Rome Statute, South Africa was under an obligation to act against him. Pandor had to use her negotiating skills to convince an obstinate Russia not to attend. “I think I was very fortunate to have a president who was interested in international policy and who supported me fully with my work. That doesn’t always happen with presidents and foreign affairs ministers; I was really lucky,” she said, crediting Ramaphosa.

Despite her role in re-establishing South Africa as a global force in geopolitics, she attributes this to a series of “fortuitous events” she said cannot be discounted in Pretoria becoming a global player. She reflects on the year 2022 when South Africa took the chair of the AU and her excitement in conceptualising its role. But this was thwarted by the Covid pandemic, which forced South Africa to pivot.

“Everybody was talking about how much harm there’s going to be on these poor Africans. You’ll recall, even one famous person said we’ll be dying on the pavements. I said, ‘No, we’ve got to help the continent.’ President Ramaphosa, our department, the health department, our government, framed a response that we tabled to the leaders in the AU, and we agreed on a coherent, co-ordinated African response to Covid-19 and that, I believe, saved many, many lives.

“We did a great deal to get vaccines into Africa, but into the South as well. We got the first vaccines into the Caribbean, and it was through our efforts. So I’m saying fortune created the circumstances where our mettle was tested, and the Almighty being there, we responded very positively. So a slew of global affairs created conditions that made foreign policy very prominent and South Africa, I think, responded very, very positively.”

We did a great deal to get vaccines into Africa, but into the South as well. We got the first vaccines into the Caribbean, and it was through our efforts. So I’m saying fortune created the circumstances where our mettle was tested

Her relationship with Ramaphosa extends far beyond her time as a minister in his cabinet. The two met during the negotiations for the country’s interim constitution. She said Ramaphosa was known by party leaders as a key problem solver. “We would run to him, and say this wording is not working, or that clause, and he would always in a gentle, thoughtful way, help to find a resolution. So we’ve had that link to him. Very sharp person, always keen to discuss,” she said.

“With international relations you have a very close relationship with the president and his office, and he was always open. We could always meet wherever he was, and he would offer advice. So we had a really good relationship. And you know, we had many moments of laughter, many moments of dismay, many moments of horror, but throughout I really benefited from a very good working relationship.”

On occasion, the two disagreed on some issues, including what she described as “little missteps” with respect to Russia and Ukraine. “But you know, we’d always find a way of addressing the key issues”. The misstep came when Pandor released a statement, unbeknown to Ramaphosa, urging Russia to withdraw its troops from Ukraine. This was against the ANC stance of non-alignment. The ANC had close ties with Russia owing to support from the Soviet Union during apartheid. “So I’ve been really lucky. And I always say, gosh, you know, if I’d had a different sort of person, I don’t think we’d have been able to do the many, many things.”

Ramaphosa’s confidence in Pandor became evident when he named her as his running mate in the watershed Nasrec election in 2017 — a move that surprised many of his allies. Much like Ramaphosa, Pandor had no constituency within the ANC. With Ramaphosa contesting Nkosazana Dlamini- Zuma, who had the advantage of receiving an endorsement by the then ANC president Jacob Zuma, Pandor was not favoured by Ramaphosa allies.

Some ANC leaders close to Ramaphosa’s campaign felt that he needed a deputy president with a strong influence in the provinces. Her European accent and status were not ideal to win support against the likes of David Mabuza, who had the might of the Mpumalanga province behind him. She declined her nomination, leading to Mabuza emerging as the deputy president. But she now regrets her decision.

“I think it was bad advice from certain comrades ... And also I’m a doer, I thought to be deputy president you are just in the office there. I might not be on the ground like I’m used to. I like to grapple with things, so it didn’t seem to suit my personality. But in a way, I think I should have let it go to voting, because there were regions that supported me, and I was wrong to withdraw. I’ve never withdrawn from anything before, and maybe I was nervous. It was big, you know, and I’m kind of a humble person.

“I think it’s just me and my character, and really what I like doing, which is work, and maybe my perception of a deputy president feels different. I do regret it. At the conference, after it was indicated I declined, a gentleman, a comrade member, came to me and shouted out, ‘We came here ready to vote for you.’”

As one of few women to have got into the ring with powerful male leaders in the world, Pandor admits the dynamics with male counterparts can be daunting. She said that during certain interactions with foreign ministers of powerful countries she felt some intimidation, being a small player from South Africa.

“For example, I don’t like alcohol and smoking, and they smoke. Smoking, I’m very clear, so I will tell my best friend who is a very powerful minister, sorry not on this table. But the intimidation would be things like arguments about issues, and they’re more experienced than you are. You’re trying to speak for Africa ... you have got to stand up and really take on the issues.”

Pandor made it a point during her tenure to engage powerful leaders despite their differing views. This, she said, was how she used “strategy and tactics” to take on matters of diplomacy. She used this art to engage various leaders who were pressuring South Africa to take a position on Russia. In one case, she said, she informally approached a minister against the advice of her officials to voice Pretoria’s stance on the war.

“I stood out. I was nervous, I can tell you, because it’s a big partner, but the reception I got, the friendship we’ve enjoyed since then, indicated to me that when it’s an issue of principle, don’t back down too easily. Be nervous, be afraid, approach it properly, but don’t just give up and say you are a small fish.”

Reflecting on the AU and creating peace and security in Africa, Pandor admits that changing the continent is a very complex task. However, she notes that the AU has not always chosen a leadership that fully understands the range of matters that can enable advances in the continent. “I think the AU has become a very big, expensive institution, which largely appears to focus on administrative, rather than programmatic and policy matters, and utilises huge amounts of resources for employing thousands of people. But when you actually start to investigate the nature of development projects, you don’t get the solid answers as to what’s being done.”

She said the AU should be focused on peace and security in Africa as conflict is a major problem, and give greater support to the New Partnership for Africa’s Development as an institutional vehicle for advancing the development agenda. “I don’t think South Africa is unimportant in the AU. I think that it would be a mistake to believe that,” she says.

She argues that South Africa has advanced issues of peace and security very well, contributing to combating the extremist Isis group in Mozambique, and conflict resolution in the Democratic Republic of Congo and South Sudan. “So I don’t believe that it is correct to say South Africa doesn’t have a presence in the AU or on the continent. We are the biggest development partner on the continent. Many people don’t recognise that.

“And of course, the private sector of South Africa is making a massive contribution to the economic development of Africa. I was astounded that there are over 200 companies in Ghana employing over 50,000 Ghanaians and contributing to the GDP of Ghana. So don’t underplay the critical and important role of our country.”