Do we have a law enforcement capability in any meaningful sense?
We have overcrowded prisons and about 230,000 cases that were processed last year, so there is a capability.
Why don't we see it in the stats?
It needs to be a lot more focused and strategically utilised.
Is it time for the police minister to go?
Even if he did go I'm not sure we'd see a change in the crime stats or capability of the system any time soon.
Are you saying the minister of police has no impact on the police?
He certainly does. We've seen how ministerial appointments over the years led to the decline of the police. But whether [Bheki] Cele is there or not it's not going to be immediately apparent to anybody. We've now got a new national commissioner. The previous one [Khehla Sitole] was out of his depth
To what extent are the stats a reflection of his disastrous relationship with the minister?
Crime has gone up noticeably every year since 2012. The number of murders is almost 40 times higher than in 2012, with robberies over 40 times higher. What we've seen is a continuation of a trend brought about by Jacob Zuma and his loyalists' attack on the criminal justice system back in 2009. We're still dealing with that.
How damaging was the fact that the minister and his national commissioner didn't communicate with each other?
Very damaging because you end up having a leadership cohort in top levels of the SAPS that doesn't work together in a coherent manner. So you've got those that support the minister and those that supported the commissioner, that didn't trust each other. That discordance trickled down through the organisation so that across all environments there's a lack of trust and coherence.
The leadership cohort don't work together, they're undermining each other, second guessing each other. If that happens at the top of the organisation it means that police officers at station level are not getting the kind of direction they need, not being held accountable and not getting resources. At least the new commissioner has a working relationship with the minister so they can start moving forward. But it's going to take some time before this is felt across the organisation.
Can there be an improvement with the police budget set to be cut?
Between 2012 and 2020 there was a 66% increase in the budget, and big reductions in performance and capability.
Do you have any confidence in the NPA's ability to keep the Guptas behind bars long enough to be extradited?
I do, actually. There's been a lot of work behind the scenes, working in Dubai with their ministry of justice.
The Guptas have flown top lawyers from SA to secure bail. Has the NPA got anyone there who'll be a match for them?
They're being advised by some of our top extradition lawyers, they have some of the best legal minds in the country on advisory panels helping them make decisions, providing input. I'm confident that everything that can be done will be done to bring them back to SA to face trial.
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