Are our universities in crisis?
A number of them are facing governance challenges.
Also leadership challenges?
Yes, that's right.
Why?
At no stage have we not had one or two institutions facing governance or leadership challenges. The reason why now we are having slightly more institutions having these challenges is ... independent assessors appointed at various institutions between 2010 and 2018 found that the key problem was usually conflict between councils and management, but increasingly now the challenge is corruption.
How did universities become sites of corruption?
We're in a society that is facing increasing corruption.
Isn't it a cop-out to blame society for corruption at universities?
No, universities are a microcosm of society.
What are the factors within universities that have made them sites of corruption?
Firstly, it's about capturing supply chain processes. You have managers appointed, you capture registrars' offices, you have a core group of people that are in council. That is how this thing starts.
Do you think pursuing unrealistic transformation targets has contributed?
It's got nothing to do with that. Do you know that 62% of managers in South Africa are white? How can we not pursue transformation in a country that's more than 80% black? We have to change our institutions so that their demographics move towards representing our country.
Was due consideration given to the skills universities require?
Yes, of course.
Why are university councils so under professionalised?
The situation is uneven, they're not generally under professionalised.
Don't many of them lack crucial legal, financial, auditing skills?
Some yes, that's true. But that's not because we're changing the colour or gender of the institutions. Not at all. It's networks that are wanting to capture supply chain processes. That is the issue.
Do you know that 62% of managers in South Africa are white? How can we not pursue transformation in a country that's more than 80% black? We have to change our institutions so that their demographics move towards representing our country
Not councils being over-politicised and lacking necessary oversight skills?
No. There are many council members who are very good, very committed. Similarly, there are council members who are corrupt, who go rogue. And it's not only councils that are a problem, it's also in management and administrative structures.
Why have there been so many inappropriate appointments?
I can't make a generalisation. I don't think it's the majority of the people who are corrupt. But we have got small networks, some of them powerful, which capture these institutions and then corruption just goes on and on.
Doesn't the buck stop with you as the responsible minister?
No, the buck does not stop with me as the minister. Universities are autonomous institutions.
Don't you have the authority to take councils to task when red flags are raised and investigate governance failures?
Yes, but not willy-nilly, I'm governed by the law. I don't run universities, they run their own affairs. Where I pick up problems I act. That's why I appointed an independent assessor to investigate the situation at Unisa.
Why only last year?
I can't just go in, I have to appoint in terms of the law.
Have you been too slow to act on reports of corruption?
Definitely not. But we're a constitutional democracy, you must follow the law. Sometimes you can see a problem coming but if the law doesn't allow it you can't just act willy-nilly.
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