Are you concerned about increasing police brutality?
We are very concerned. I’m not saying the police must be gentle in dealing with suspects, because they can be brutal too.
They can’t use that excuse for shooting and killing a Johannesburg metro police officer the other day while trying to arrest her son for reckless driving, can they?
No, the police could have arrested the lady. If she was threatening, they could have used another technical approach to deal with the incident.
What about their killing of nine suspects in Mariannhill?
We are investigating that case. We are linking those suspects to cases which were opened where they were regarded as the most wanted suspects.
Are you concerned by the police minister’s comment that such killings will deter other suspects?
One would agree with the minister, because so many violent crimes are happening right now. If you don’t come up with measures where people will be shocked by the actions of the police, nothing will happen.
Aren’t you concerned that such comments by the minister of police might encourage the police to believe they’re above the law?
The police know very well that there is Ipid. In our engagements with them, they have indicated they are afraid of us, because they know they are going to be arrested for any action they take that is above the law.
Are you concerned that, in spite of this, so many officers believe executing suspects is easier than taking them to court?
No, because there are many police officers of integrity who understand their responsibility and arrest suspects and take them to court. Yes, because in most instances they’re involved with the very same criminals, and the best way is to eliminate them and destroy evidence. It ’s worrying that this is how police officers are short-circuiting the criminal justice system. And it means that police officers we have as a country are not qualified to do the job.
Are you concerned that the police leadership is turning a blind eye to these extrajudicial killings?
There are such pockets, but when we engage with the national office, we find a different approach that says, ‘Help us eliminate corrupt elements in the police service and help us professionalise the service. If there is wrongdoing you are picking up, bring it to our attention.’
So you have all the support you need to investigate wrongdoing?
I have support, but capacity constraints do not enable Ipid to run the way we want it to. Investigating 180,000 police officers with 176 investigators is a problem. You’ll always have a backlog.
Is this why there have been no consequences for police officers who shot Mthokozisi Ntumba dead during a Wits student protest he wasn’t even involved in?
The challenge with that case is that the witness who was willing to testify has suddenly disappeared, and the CCTV camera with all its footage has suddenly disappeared. You can’t go to court if you don’t have that kind of evidence. What we have picked up on the ground is that witnesses who agree to testify are threatened by officers who are involved in crime, and then decide to disappear.
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