Can we win the fight against organised crime when forensic auditors and whistle-blowers are being assassinated?
No. If we don’t have adequate protection and risk processes in place for them, it is impossible to win the fight against organised crime.
Isn’t it a classic sign of a mafia state when those investigating or blowing the whistle on organised crime are taken out with impunity?
Yes. To totally generalise about being a mafia state, I don’t think would be completely accurate. But are there signs of us being a mafia state? Absolutely. Is it a crisis? It definitely is — and we’ve got a lot to do to turn the ship around.
How seriously is the political and police leadership taking the need to protect those investigating organised crime?
I don’t think they’re taking it seriously enough. There’s a wide gap between what we hear them say and the lived reality on the ground. If we look at the new police budget — debated in parliament this week — there are signs of positive movement. My problem is that no budget can save the police or Ipid (Independent Police Investigative Directorate) or the Hawks if we don’t have integrity in leadership structures. The arrest of senior crime intelligence officers a week ago is a very, very serious and negative indictment on the police.
Do you have any idea why it took so long for them to be arrested?
Well, SAPS didn’t arrest them, Idac (Investigating Directorate Against Corruption) arrested them.
Do you have any idea why SAPS itself did nothing?
It’s an absolute disgrace. If SAPS had the relevant integrity check processes in place — which they always promise to have — those people wouldn’t have been in those positions. So this speaks of a much larger integrity problem in SAPS, and I’m afraid it’s going to leave them extremely exposed over the coming months, even years. Because how do people trust senior SAPS officers if we see these types of indictments happening?
Would Idac have acted unless there was a considerable body of very compelling evidence against these officers?
No, I don’t think Idac would have taken the risk of making these arrests if they didn’t have strong evidence.
Did you ask the police minister if he was aware of any such evidence against crime intelligence bosses?
We did ask, and he said there were certain probes in place. But a lot of it touches on the secret service fund, which is not discussed in the police portfolio committee but in the joint intelligence committee.
Are you not privy to such discussions?
No. Unless there’s a joint session or joint briefing of some sort. It’s a top secret security clearance committee, and they’ve got specific things they zoom in on that aren’t [for] public knowledge.
Is this a problem for you when it comes to holding the police accountable?
It’s frustrating, and I don’t think it's a perfect situation. But it’s just one part of the police.
Surely it’s important for your police oversight work to be privy to all discussions about the police crime intelligence division?
Yes, it would help significantly.
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